between now and october 14th at midnight. any place you say, governor romney, we'll be there. >> all right. we're going to be holding our breath until october 14th at midnight. linda ellerbee gets tonight's last word. time to attack. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening, everyone. i'm chris matthews from washington. let me start tonight with this. attack. a month now stands between here and election. four weeks to sell the country on the difference between obama and romney on the big issues of our times. time to attack. time to remind voters who rode to the rescue -- who did ride to the rescue of the american auto industry and who stood out there telling it to go bankrupt.

time to attack. which candidate fought to get equal pay for equal work for women so no girl in america will ever grow up thinking her time, her sweat is worth less than a boy's? time to attack. which candidate saw 40 million people, uninsured americans, dragging themselves to sit for hours in emergency rooms across the country? he saw it, obama did, and refused to let it stay that way through yet another presidency. mitt romney saw the way things were and said he wants to keep things that way. if you don't have insurance, tough. go get a seat with the other victims and moochers. well, this is where romney's vulnerable, where obama can come charging from his ground of strength. now is the time. romney taken to task for his positions so far from the american mainstream. i'm joined by democrat strategist bob shrum and former chair of the rnc michael steele. as i said it's time for president obama to attack. ♪ and we hear it.

>> and we're off. >> that is a little bit too jim cramer for some of you perhaps, but it is, in fact, my feeling. there comes a time, it's called attack from a defensive position. the president has been attacked. i think it's time to return the favor to romney. your thoughts this week. >> it's what he had to do in the debate, didn't do, and it's what he has to do every day between now and the next debate. he has to draw the contrast on medicare and straighten out this myth that the president cut $716 million from medicare benefits. he didn't. they're cut from medicare providers like insurance companies that are overcharging. he has to attack on the issue of taxes. there aren't enough tax loopholes or tax deductions to pay for romney's tax cut unless you cut into home interest mortgage deductions, unless you get rid of state and local

taxes. that will hit the middle class hard. you have to be honest about this. the debate hurt obama and helped romney, and romney's gotten a bump in the polls, although it seems to be flattening out. you look at the new poll in ohio, the president is at 51%, romney is at 47%. i think the president, the fundamental structure of the race hasn't been changed, but if he doesn't go on the attack, if biden doesn't do a good job against ryan, and if the president doesn't show up and isn't strong in the second debate, then you're going to have a tossup race. >> well, i would disagree with your approach, first of all. i don't approach it that way. that's going back and relegating all the old arguments. in spirit what i would do, unlike shrumy, i would take the big issue that is separating the candidates, don't get into the little trench warfare about what's your tax plan and where were you on medicare two weeks ago. i would say where did you stand on saving the american auto industry? you had one position, i had another position. where are you on equal pay? republicans are against equal pay by law. these are big differences. don't talk about big bird one more time. >> please don't talk about big

bird. leave the bird alone. the fact of the -- >> the bird is already dead. >> okay. >> shrum. but i actually agree with you on this one, chris. i think absolutely. i have been saying for a long, long time for the romney team to go big, to put the bigger argument in play here, and i think -- >> he did that last week. it's time for obama to do it. >> that's exactly what he did. and so now is the time for the obama team to come to the table. show me how big -- >> i think there are big differences about women's rights, big difference about the role of government in saving american -- that's my point.

come back on me if i'm wrong. i don't think arguing about medicare dos and don'ts and what's in and what's out -- he'll always win that. you know why? he's willing to say anything, candidate, i was vice president of department of defense policy board. last year around this time i was down there in the combat zone

let's watch. >> he is a pragmatic business person. he's a guy who likes to take apart a problem and figure out how to get it fixed. >> barack obama is a fascinating mixture of boldness and caution but then once he makes a decision, it's usually the bold one. >> mitt romney has been accused of flip-flopping, but on mormonism he will never flip-flop. >> and yet in politics he has often tried to keep that part of him behind the curtain. >> the backlash against his presidency must be mystifying to him because he genuinely doesn't

see himself as a radical. >> well, with us right now is michael kirk producer of "frontline: the choice 2012." congratulations it will be fabulous to watch this. give us a couple reasons why -- let me put it this way, what do you learn about -- and this is almost inevitable, we don't talk policy side when really the conversation needs to be about the people that are struggling

>> it's what he had to do in the debate, didn't do, and it's what he has to do every day between now and the next debate. he has to draw the contrast on medicare and straighten out this myth that the president cut $716 million from medicare benefits. he didn't. they're cut from medicare providers like insurance companies that are overcharging. he has to attack on the issue of taxes. there aren't enough tax loopholes or tax deductions to pay for romney's tax cut unless you cut into home interest mortgage deductions, unless you get rid of state and local taxes. that will hit the middle class hard. you have to be honest about this. the debate hurt obama and helped romney, and romney's gotten a bump in the polls, although it seems to be flattening out. you look at the new poll in ohio, the president is at 51%, romney is at 47%. i think the president, the fundamental structure of the race hasn't been changed, but if he doesn't go on the attack, if biden doesn't do a good job against ryan, and if the president doesn't show up and isn't strong in the second debate, then you're going to have a tossup race. >> well, i would disagree with your approach, first of all. i don't approach it that way. that's going back and relegating all the old arguments. in spirit what i would do, unlike shrumy, i would take the big issue that is separating the candidates, don't get into the little trench warfare about what's your tax plan and where were you on medicare two weeks ago. i would say where did you stand on saving the american auto industry? you had one position, i had another position. where are you on equal pay? republicans are against equal pay by law. these are big differences. don't talk about big bird one more time.

>> please don't talk about big >> he did that last week. it's time for obama to do it. >> that's exactly what he did. and so now is the time for the obama team to come to the table. show me how big -- >> i think there are big differences about women's rights, big difference about the role of government in saving american -- that's my point. come back on me if i'm wrong. i don't think arguing about

medicare dos and don'ts and what's in and what's out -- he'll always win that. you know why? he's willing to say anything, romney, anything in a debate. how do you beat a guy who is willing to say anything, who knows it only matters when the camera is off. when he sends out a staffer to correct the record. nobody is watching. that's what he likes. >> i don't disagree with you about the auto industry as an issue. i don't disagree with you about women's rights as an issue and equal pay, but you can't walk alternate cavalry leader, bill

clinton. i was young enough to remember have been using the term the alternate cavalry leader, bill clinton. i was young enough to remember what it was like when ike came into the campaign for nixon and almost won it for nixon. ike was still the guy who won defend freedom. that's what the ads say. but then there's paul ryan, the republican vice presidential equal pay for equal work for women so no girl in america will ever grow up thinking her time, the fourth of july" where everybody cheers him when he goes off to fight but when he comes back dismembered, there's not a lot of bugles playing.

not a lot of bugles playing.\ they're good at the beginning but not so good when we meet the casualties. >> i think people rally around brave young men and women -- >> i wish they would. >> before i became a senate candidate, i was vice president of department of defense policy board. presidential debate on thursday night. joe biden has the opportunity to tell the truth. what mitt romney will do to the middle class in this country. good debate by joe biden coming up on thursday night. joan, how important is it? >> it's really important. i think what he needs to do is

tie paul ryan around mitt romney's neck like a mill stone. paul ryan's policies are deadly unpopular and he's basically been allowed to kind of get away with it and paper over what he believes and what mitt romney believes. but paul ryan is just a terrible deficit for the ticket. the other thing is it is a base senator john mccain by 2 to 1 in the margin in the youth vote in this country. it's crucial for the president to get similar numbers this time around if he's going to win the state of florida. of course, to vote they must be registered and voter registration drives have been underway for months.

yeah, i'm looking to save, but i'm not sure which policy is right for me. you should try our coverage checker. it helps you see if you have too much coverage or not enough, making it easier to get what you need. [ beeping ] these are great! [ beeping ] how are you, um, how are you doing? i'm going to keep looking over here. probably a good idea. ken: what's a good idea? nothing. with coverage checker, it's easy to find your perfect policy. visit progressive.com today. that he's the guy who is going to protect medicare when he's, in fact, going to turn it into voucher care. senior citizens, especially in states like florida,

senate race in north dakota, montana, nevada, and arizona, believe it or not arizona, now tossups. the democrat making a surprising run. richard carmona here on hardball. he's a vietnam vet and quite a candidate.

about the so-called romney rebellion. as politico put it, ann romney and son tag performed an intervention on mitt trying to put an emphasis on his softer and more moderate image. the softer image was on full display last week in denver. there's a difference between talking in more moderate ways and pledging to govern as a moderate. the mitt we saw last week in that debate was certainly working double time to etch-a-sketch away some of his positions. take a look.

>> i will not reduce the share paid by high-income individuals. well, the current rates less 20%, so the top rate, for instance, would go from 35% to 28%. regulation is essentially. this president has enacted job-killing regulations. i will eliminate them. what we did in massachusetts is a model for the nation. >> did you say on camera and other places that at times you thought it would be a model for the nation. >> you're wrong, brad. >> no, no, there's tape -- >> no, the tape out there -- continue to read the tape and the tape goes on to say for each state to be able to look at it. >> okay. but don't be fooled by romney's new language, of course. if the president wants to hold onto his job, he better make the american people understand that the so-called moderate mitt is just a mirage for the occasion. does he have it in him to do it? ron reagan is an msnbc political analyst, and michelle goldberg is senior contributing writer for "newsweek" and the daily beast. thank you for joining us. i get pretty despondent when i think about the power of this medium television. if all you go by is what you watch and it's a good thing we

all watch these debates, you really don't have the knowledge that you might need as a voter to know whether this syncs with what the guy stands for or it's merely a performance and i wonder whether if this guy, mr. romney, governor romney, is able to say something like, well, all pre-existing conditions will be covered and then have his guy go out later this night and tell a few people who read the newspapers, oh, it doesn't really cover you unless you're already covered which doesn't mean anything. your thoughts, ron. will television deceive? >> yes, it does deceive. candidates deceive. it's one of the most disturbing aspects of this campaign, particularly if romney would win. it would set a standard of dishonesty for all campaigns going forward that would be really hard to meet. going into the next debate, i have been listening to your discussions thus far today, and i agree with you, you don't want obama to relitigate the last debate and i agree he has to attack romney the man. it's not about rearguing the medicare issue as such. it's about revealing the fact that romney has been all over the map on various issues, will

say anything on a given day to get through the day, and he has to be unmasked that way. >> well, that's what i would do, michelle. the facts are that romney believes basically that the status quo on health care before president obama came along is fine with him, 40 million people sitting in emergency rooms for most of the day to get some kind of basic care. he does say things like i want the auto industry to go bankrupt. he does say -- or his party does and he supports them, let's not have a law that says you have to get equal pay for equal work if you're a woman. these seem to be pretty fundamental positions he's taken and yet in the debate because his family apparently told him to go softer he was able to mask them. >> and i feel for obama because as lackluster as his performance was, it's really hard to debate someone who is willing to make things up and kind of pull facts out of thin air. i'm not sure it's necessarily his job to refute all of this -- >> whose job is it? >> his campaign's and the super pacs. i don't understand why there's

not an ad on tv that uses that old quote of his about how inequality should only be spoken about in private rooms and then says, well, look at what romney says in private rooms. here is what he says in the debate which is the real romney? >> do you think moderators should play that role? i don't want to knock jim lehrer, he's a distinguished journalist, but i have seen people like the late tim russert and people like bob schieffer, whenever they hear a complete nonsense statement from a politician on the sunday shows, they tend to go, now, just a minute. are you saying -- you can't believe that. that sort of general, ron, skepticism. you first, michelle. isn't it in order to stop him and say that's not been your position, sir? >> i understand the argument that he wants to be a kind of neutral arbiter, but, yes, absolutely. when you say, you know, flat out there is no tax cut for the wealthy in my plan or he says that kind of higher income people won't play any smaller of

a share of the tax burden, when he's been saying on camera for more than a year now that he intends to reduce their rates to 20%, that he intends to reduce the inheritance tax, reduce capital gains -- >> it's called cut. >> it's pretty easy to just say how do you square this with your earlier statements. you don't even have to call him out for lying. that's a legitimate question. >> and there are -- >> your thoughts about the role of a moderator. how do we get truth out of an hour and a half debate when nobody comes in and says whoa? >> exactly. when mitt romney says, for instance, that half the companies or over half the companies that have received loans from the federal government, new alternative energy companies, have gone bankrupt when the real number is something like 5% which is probably better than bain capital's average, you would think the moderator would be familiar enough with the facts that he could stop him right there and simply point out that that is not true. you're not being -- you're not taking sides when you're taking sides with the truth.

>> i think you can throw the flag once in a while, throw the flag. mitt romney tried to use his experience as governor of massachusetts as evidence of his bipartisan leanings. let's look at what he said. >> jim, i had the great experience, it didn't seem like it at the time, of being elected in a state where my legislature was 87% democrat. and that meant i figured out from day one i had to get along, and i had to work across the aisle to get anything done. >> well, of course, would romney be as motivated to work across the aisle if, for example, both the senate and the house nationally are republican controlled in that case he would likely be facing a lot of people thinking exactly the way anti-tax crusader grover norquist summed it up. watch norquist in action. >> we are not auditioning for fearless leader. we don't need a president to tell us what direction to go. we know what direction we want to go. we want the paul ryan budget which cuts spending $6 trillion. the republicans in the house have passed 24-plus bills that

create jobs and opportunity and strip out regulations. we just need a president to sign this stuff. and pick a republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the united states. >> you know, that's not an unfair shot. he basically believes he has those pledges in his pocket. he knows he can control fiscal policy in the congress with or without the new president. he's got romney's arms tied in the same way that the religion right has his arms tied on abortion rights, same-sex, the way the neo cons have his arms tied in terms of foreign policy. >> one question either the moderate or obama should ask, name one issue in which you plan to puck your party, one issue in which you plan to stand up to house republicans, one issue in which you don't plan to govern as a severe conservative as you described your record in massachusetts before you were describing your record as a bipartisan bridge builder. >> would he come out with a sister souljah moment on request?

>> that could request. were you a severe conservative or are you the reaching over the aisle -- across the aisle kind of guy? which is it? but you've got to -- as i said before, you have to go at romney the person. it's not romney's policies because those don't really exist. it's romney the man that he's -- >> i agree. that's what i'm working tonight. let's take a look at the promise romney made at the debate last week about keeping his $5 trillion tax cut deficit -- new deficit neutral. no cost to the deficit and cutting $5 trillion mainly for the wealthy. let's watch. >> with regards to that tax cut, look, i'm not looking to cut massive taxes and to reduce the revenues going to the government. my number one principle is there will be no tax cut that adds to the deficit. i want to underline that. no tax cut that adds to the deficit. >> paul ryan just days before the debate last week directly contradicted romney. ryan said lowering the tax rates

was more important than anything else, including getting rid of those deductions to pay for them supposedly. let's watch. >> what's most important to romney, would he scale back on the 20% tax cut for the wealthy? would he scale back and say, okay, we're going to have to raise taxes for the middle class? i guess the question is what's most important to him in his tax reform plan -- >> keeping tax rates down. by lowering tax rates, people keep more of the next dollar they earn. >> that's more important -- >> that's more important than anything. >> in other words, it is, in fact, a tax cut. it's not a tax cut offset by deductions. it's to get the tax rates down from 35% to 38%. that's the goal he said. >> romney said something interesting in the debate where he basically said nobody can say that my tax cut is going to add to the deficit if i say it won't. well, in fact, everybody who has looked at the plan says it will add to the deficit. there isn't a single credible

economist that thinks these numbers add up, and romney thus far has gotten away with not having to justify the numbers that don't add up. >> everybody wants something free. he's offering them that. cotton candy for the world. thank you. up next, the rogue's gallery of republicans who don't believe science. wait until you catch this science committee in the house and it's membership. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

romney stopped at the tin fish restaurant in port st. lucie, florida, yesterday. he was posing for a group photo with the staff when one of the employees decided to help clean him up. this is nice, and then he's like -- oh, oh. okay. wait a minute now. and then he kind of uses his hand to tap, tap.

okay, now we're going to push that out of the frame. by the way, where is the secret service when this is going on? >> back to "hardball," last month's jobs report showed the country's unemployment rate had dropped to 7.8%. instead of acknowledging the positive news, jack welch led a group of lesser lights saying the numbers must have been manipulated by the obama administration and that the unemployment rate couldn't really be below 8%. jon stewart weighed in. >> it's got to be corrupt political manipulation of the official statistics. what else would explain why after unemployment has been steadily declining for the last year that now suddenly right before the election it declines a little more? please. >> a lot of people are saying that the government's cooking the books here. >> i'll tell you these guys are saying they feel like they cooked the books. >> look, i got to say, if you're cooking the books, 7.8% unemployment is a [ bleep ] recipe. it's like the radish stew of jobless numbers. if you're cooking, make a nice jambalaya, something nice for

people. unemployment is 2.6%. >> enough said. with the election just weeks away, positive news about the economy ignites desperation among angry republicans. last time i told you about republican congressman paul broun, the member of the house science committee who called things like evolution and even the big bang theory lies from the pit of hell. are you curious who else is picking up the slack for broun on the science committee while he's out there spreading his "planet of the apes" world view? dana rohrabacher called global warming a complete fraud. quote, we don't know what those other cycles were caused by in the past. could be dinosaur flatulence or, you know, who knows. might be tricky to square that with broun's assertion that the earth is only 9,000 years old. next it's ralph hall. in order to support legislation

to cut finding for scientific research and education, hall said this about scientists who come before his committee to talk about the reality of climate change. quote, i think we ought to listen to them. i just don't think we ought to mind them. that's a thinker. their colleague, jim sensenbrenner, has called the idea of climate change an international conspiracy and scientific fascism. heard enough? don't forget about todd akin. he has a slot on the science committee, he and his theory that in legitimate cases of rape the woman can't get pregnant. up next, republicans probably figured they had the senate seat in arizona all wrapped up, but richard carmona has come out of nowhere and coming on strong. now we have a race out there. richard carmona joins us next. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

welcome back to "hardball." arizona's democratic senate candidate richard carmona has an inspiring biography that's

nearly cuss mom made for politics. he dropped out of high school, went to vietnam, and became a decorated combat veteran. he got a ged, got a medical degree, and went on to become surgeon general in george w. bush's administration. here is a part of his story in a campaign ad. let's watch. >> from the jungles of vietnam to life-saving rescues at home, rich carmona has always answered the call. in the senate he'll support our veterans because he's lived it. >> now, richard carmona has put the republican held arizona senate seat in play. democrats dearly want to hold on to the majority in the senate and flipping the seat held by jon kyl would make it even harder for republicans to stop them. it would be a powerful symbol of the shift politics in western states. joining me now is richard carmona. it's on honor to have you on the show, sir. how do you handle -- how do you unify your state along ethnic lines between what we call anglos and latinos? how do you make the state feel whole? >> well, it's whole and home for me, chris, because i have been

here over a quarter century. as you know, working in health care, working along the border, working as a police officer, working as a professor at the university. so the people know me and they consider me one ever their own and they're very proud of me stepping up to serve my country once again. >> because i look at someone like your governor, without going after her too roughly, i just sense that her brand of politics is division. >> yes, chris. there's a lot of division here and it's one of the reasons i decided to step up. you know, all of the democrats and even the moderate republicans that i deal with every single day, they're just fed up with this finger pointing and extremist rhetoric that's out here and it's hurtful and painful and doesn't solve any problems. i believe the people are behind me because they see me as a reasonable person willing to solve their problems. >> let's talk about the tradition of western democrat. i came into politic was frank moss from utah, a very popular guy for about three terms out there even though he's a liberal democrat.

and i look at all the western democrats, montoya in the old days, lee metcalf and magnuson and scoop jackson. and mike mansfield, of course. there's a long history of democrats in the west. what's happened? can they make a comeback? just moderate democrats from the west, is there something that can be rebuilt there as a tradition without mirroring what goes on back east? >> chris, i really think there is, and i think what's helping us is the most is the extremist rhetoric that's been happening throughout the west. i think people are rejecting that, they're tired of the partisanship, tired of the finger pointing and name game and blame and nobody taking responsibility for the people. i think it's our time now to step up around bring some reasonable people to congress and i think that's why i'm going to be successful. >> well, you've been running an ad that essentially hugs the middle which makes sense saying -- i'm only reading the prompter. saying democrats and republicans are wrong on health care reform. let's watch what you're saying because this couldn't be a trickier position, your position in the middle of health care as a surgeon. >> i've seen health care as a combat medic, nurse, and trauma surgeon. how it can save lives. but i have also seen it as surgeon general, how politics

can get in the way. republicans and democrats both got it wrong. we've got to make health care affordable for small business and working families. through innovation and preventative care while also cutting waste and fraud. i'm rich carmona and i approve this message because it's time to tackle tough problems together. >> mr. carmona, just give me a minute, tell me what you did in vietnam. >> i was a u.s. army special forces medic and weapons specialist on an a team, and i served in combat carrying out special operations on behalf of our country. >> so you were in it. >> yes, yes, i was and with a lot of my friends and, you know, it's one of the reasons i'm so passionate about our veterans and making sure that they get the education and training they deserve, that their va benefits are preserved, and that we should be awarding them combat bonuses. congressman flake, of course, has voted down all those things. be there's no higher calling

than honoring these young men and women who so bravely serve us. right now i'm real disappointed in how congressman flake has done that. i won't do that. i will support or veterans and seniors as well as some of the areas congressman flake has moved away from because it's politically convenient for him. >> you know that movie "born of the fourth of july" where everybody cheers him when he goes off to fight but when he comes back dismembered, there's not a lot of bugles playing.\ they're good at the beginning but not so good when we meet the casualties. >> i think people rally around brave young men and women -- >> i wish they would. >> before i became a senate candidate, i was vice president of department of defense policy board. last year around this time i was down there in the combat zone and trauma centers with these kits, devastated for life. these kids are going to life 50 and 60 more years. we owe them and their families for the rest of their lives and trying to make them whole and give them the benefits they've

earned because those are not entitlements which is what congressman flake has said. they are not entitlements, these are earned benefits. >> that's part of the 47%, right? >> probably so but, you know, for me i'm keeping focused on the specifics that i will never waiver from supporting our veterans for protecting medicare, protecting social security, to make sure our seniors, again, who have earned those benefits. they've put in every paycheck for 40 or 50 years. we can't pull the rug out from under them now. we owe that to the seniors to make sure they live their lives in comfort and dignity and respect and not have to worry about bankruptcy and not getting health care. >> i have watched people in politics for about 50, 60 years now. all my life i have been watching politics and i like the people who went against the wind, against the tide and they win in races where their state may go the other direction, they go the other direction. this week it's very important to talk about that because joe biden won his first race in 1972, the year that george mcgovern got blown out in 49 states. actually 49 states including his

own, south dakota. but joe biden won in delaware even as his state was going for nixon and i think if you pull this off, you will be a man to be watched for years and years. thank you very much, richard carmona running for the united states senate in arizona. up next, a new pbs documentary on this race, the 2012 presidential race, explores how mitt romney's mormon faith shapes him as a politician and his ambitions and how romney and obama came back from bruising losses early in their political careers and that's ahead. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] if you had a dollar for every dollar

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we've got another couple polls for new states not thought of as battlegrounds, but they're close. in pennsylvania the president is up by just three points over romney, 43%, 40%. in michigan, mitt romney's home state, he trails the president by just three there as well now in a new epic-mra poll, obama, 48%, romney, 45%. we'll be right back. boy, they are close.

we're back. throughout this election year we've watched president obama and governor romney's campaigns carefully craft a message on who exactly their candidate is and what makes them tick. well, a pbs frontline documentary airing tonight is breaking through the talking points to find out what made these two presidential candidates the men they are in the words of their friends, family, enemies, and the reporters who have covered them. let's watch. >> he is a pragmatic business person.

he's a guy who likes to take apart a problem and figure out how to get it fixed. >> barack obama is a fascinating mixture of boldness and caution but then once he makes a decision, it's usually the bold one. >> mitt romney has been accused of flip-flopping, but on mormonism he will never flip-flop. >> and yet in politics he has often tried to keep that part of him behind the curtain. >> the backlash against his presidency must be mystifying to him because he genuinely doesn't see himself as a radical. >> well, with us right now is michael kirk producer of "frontline: the choice 2012." congratulations it will be fabulous to watch this. give us a couple reasons why -- let me put it this way, what do you learn about -- and this is almost inevitable, we don't talk raj in this country, we're not comfortable with it, we're a country of tremendous religious diversity and increasingly so, and we don't think it should be in any way used as a test, but what do you think is relevant to the world view of mitt romney in his faith? >> i think there's something sort of fundamental and

carefully crafted by mitt's responses to questions about his faith. i think he feels it very deeply, but can't raleigh talk about it. there's a hidden secret that he keeps in very close about it. i think it's altered the way he approaches conversation about many other things that people would like to know about him. >> all religions have that, if you don't mind it, i'm sure i'll offend everybody, with the weirdnesses, whether it's exorcism in my religion. you don't want to run on the issue of exorcism. to be all fair, they all have weird things, right? so what is it that he doesn't want to bring out that might be seen as relevant by voters? >> well, i think it's not so much what's seen as relevant by voters, but the way i look at the religion with mitt was i wanted to know what his faith mean to a young boy growing up in the mormon church as opposed to maybe you, chris, growing up in the catholic church. the answers were very interesting to me.

some of it has to do with the mission and his mission experience, but a lot of it has to do with the favorite family relation, with nair relationship to their great-grandfather, and that story that i think mitt was very fond of, hearing about how his family fought and came up by their bootstraps from real deprivation and prejudice in mexico. i think it's a story he believed in, loved, but didn't feel he could talk about it, because it's about polygamy. >> let's take a look at the documentary. let's watch the way you handled it. >> the romneys had left the united states and went to mexico to avoid persecution, but it's also to pursue polygamy. >> with someone with a name like romney, and you heard about the sufferings of your ancestors and their sacrifices and all they have done, that you feel like, well, it's my turn now, i've got

to pick up the baton. >> it's an incredible history. he can't talk about it, because it involves polygamy. if the core of your personal is something that you can't talk about, because it's politically unacceptable, you will not be open with the people around you. >> is it possible in your research to handle something i'm concerned about, that's the view of american -- and the nothing of it, not that you can come to the come and make it your world, is there something in that religion along those lines? >> there's a sense from the mormons we talk to that scripture, almost quoting scripture happened at the moment that the constitution was written that america is a -- is sort of a holy land, a places where jesus or god may come back to, that the freedom of this country needs to be protected.

that's intense, and very interesting information that mormon scholars will talk about. all we had to do was call them up and ask them and they talk about it. the fact that where mitt falls on that scale, talking about those things is something that a lot of people tell us he's not really comfortable talking about. i suspect it's something that he worries about, talking about for reasons that i don't really know. once you look at it, it makes sense that they believe that. >> he doesn't talk about himself general by, but here both governor romney and president obama suffered from bruising elections. let's watch that part. >> the debate was watched by over 3 million people, as many as watched a super bowl in massachusetts.

>> romney had these expectations he was going to win up to here, and suddenly kennedy is up to here, romney is here, the race is over. >> bobby rush called him an educated fool, against trying to cast obama as this over-educated half-white guy from hawaii with this multicultural background. he was not one of us. it was a very bruising loss for him. >> you know, michael, i think the most impressive thing about president obama is when he lost their race, got his butt kicked by bobby rush, said i'm going statewide. how many politicians say i got beat locally, i'm going statewide, i'm an african-american, that took something. >> they traveled the state trying to hook together a new coalition, emulating in some way mayor's washington victory in chicago with a lot of different kinds of people. that's a big part of his method that took him 30 years or so to perfect, but that was the original idea. yeah, when he losing to rush, he has to reinvent himself again. as usee in the film, he has to

reinvent himself in the face of michelle saying i don't want to do this anymore. >> michael, you've sold it, and we're out of time. sorry, you did a great job tonight. "frontline, the choice" airs tonight at pbs from 9:00 to 11:00. i love these documentaries. we'll be right back. ah. fire bad! just have to fire roast these tomatoes. do you churn your own butter too? what? this is going to give you a head start on your dinner. that seems easier sure does let me finish tonight with the real choice in this coming five delicious cooking sauces you combine with fresh ingredients to make amazing home-cooked meals. ♪ ambiance [ female announcer ] new progresso recipe starters. your head-start to home cooked.

let me finish tonight with the real choice in this coming election. one's a democrat, the other is a republican. one, president obama opposed the war in iraq, one, mitt romney supported it, just as he protested in favor of the vietnam war, even as he decided. >> one, president obama opposed the economic policies of george w. bush. the other, mitt romney ate them up. one, president obama sfp supported -- the other, romney wants the government to rule against it in every kay. he's the one who wants to regulate people's live. >> one president obama wants the states to decide on same-sex marriage. romney keeps same-sex banned entirely and for all time. >> president obama stepped up and rescued the auto industry. mitt romney said to let it go bankrupt. one said to make sure women get equal pay. the other heads the party that down the line was against it. -- across the country, the other